Somebody suggested that I start a thread outlining why I do not believe that the man widely known as Jesus is the “son of G-d”. SO here it goes:



First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)



He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)



He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)



He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)



He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)



He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)



He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)



He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)



All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:



And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.



The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Torah. Since the Torah makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Torah. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.





Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5



The Torah never speaks about believing in the Messiah. Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.



The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming. The Torah never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance. The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure.



According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.



There are two problems with this cl..



a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;



b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).



To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this cl..



a] There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.



b] Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.



c] Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;



I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6) The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)



d] Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

Dang! Thats long, care to tackle a point or two at a time?

Bibleman Wrote:

Dang! Thats long, care to tackle a point or two at a time?

Sure thing, but only because I respect your opinion.

What did the Tenach say about the Messiah?





(Habakkuk 3:13) You come forth to save your people, to save your anointed one. You crush the heads of the wicked, you lay bare their bases at the neck…







According to this prophecy, God WILL save his anointed one. God should have saved Jesus if Jesus was the anointed one. Logic says that if Jesus was the Messiah, God should have saved him. Instead Jesus died the most humiliating death. Jesus even died before the other two criminals who were crucified with him (according to 'John'), which makes him an even weaker mortal.

Humerous Hebrew Wrote:

Sure thing, but only because I respect your opinion.

Then we enter with mutual respect :)



I'm going to lunch soon, I'll print this out and give it a read.

Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.





Micah 5:2 states tha tthe messiah will be born in Bethlehem, yet Jesus is called Jesus of Nazerith?

Bibleman Wrote:



[t]Humerous Hebrew Wrote:

Sure thing, but only because I respect your opinion.[/t]





Then we enter with mutual respect :)



I'm going to lunch soon, I'll print this out and give it a read.

Sure thing, I'll add more just to over whelm yo uin my plan to stamp out the Christian insergiency...haha

Shelima Wrote:

http://www.menorah.org/whyjim.html





this was more convincing to me.

LMAo.. my first post proves many of those to be false. Funny how most of the requirements that are in the Torah are left out of that web page... gee I wonder why???????/////

In order for Jesus to meet the requirements and to fulfill the law for being a "perfect" atonement sacrifice for unintentional sin (which hereditary sin is), there are several conditions required for a proper unintentional sin offering which must be met:



1) The offering must be a "clean" animal, an animal approved by God for such a sacrifice (Lev 4). Humans are not on the list of animals which can be offered as sacrifice. Jesus was not qualified and failed to meet this requirement of the law.



2) The animal must be unblemished (Lev 22:22). Jesus was whipped, beaten, and circumcised. Circumcision was considered mutilation of the flesh according to the NT (Philip 3:2 and Gal 5:11-12). Jesus failed to meet this requirement of the law.



3) The offering must be made at the alter and the sacrifice would die of blood loss. The blood was then poured out at the alter and the sacrifice was burnt upon the alter. Jesus did not qualify and thus failed to meet these requirements of the law as he did not die of blood loss and did not die at the Temple and alter but on a hill.



4) Most importantly, the offering must be made/presided over by a Levitical priest. The full service priesthood was the exclusive domain of the Levites(Exo 29:9)(Exo 40:13-15). No Levitical priest offered or ritualized Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. Jesus failed to meet this requirement of the law. (The NT writers attempted to get around this problem which will be discussed later in this essay.)



Jesus in no way fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic law and his sacrifice does not qualify as a valid sin offering to God.

Humerous Hebrew Wrote:

Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.



It is taken in the sence that Jesus was "God with us", which from the Christian prespective is true. His name "Jesus" means "God is Salvation", So if you marry the two it comes out real nice :)







Micah 5:2 states tha tthe messiah will be born in Bethlehem, yet Jesus is called Jesus of Nazerith?



Jesus was born in Bethlahem:

Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."



SHortly after, He and his parents escaped to egypt for a time (to get away from Herod), then relocated to Nazareth.

Origins of the Jesus Mythos

Christianity is based on the unique belief that Jesus was God's Son, born of a virgin, sacrificed for the Salvation of man. In reality, as sacrificed virgin-born Savior Son of God, Jesus was not unique. Not even close. The Jesus mythos simply followed the traditional model of the ancient pagan savior-gods.

At the time of Jesus of Nazareth, as for centuries before, the Mediterranean world roiled with a happy diversity of creeds and rituals. Details varied according to location and culture, but the general outlines of these faiths were astonishingly similar. Roughly speaking the ancients' gods:





Were born on or very near our Christmas Day

Were born of a Virgin-Mother

Were born in a Cave or Underground Chamber

Led a life of toil for Mankind

Were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer

Were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness

And descended into Hell or the Underworld

Rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world

Founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism

Were commemorated by Eucharistic meals

Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki; the Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele. Buddha too was born of a virgin, as were the Egyptian Horus and Osiris. The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son. Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind.



Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior, " "Son of God, " "Redeemer, " and "Lamb of God." With twelve disciples he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing. His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.



The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was originally the pagan birthday of Mithras, the sun god, whose day of the week is still known as "Sunday." The halo of light which is usually shown surrounding the face of Jesus and Christian saints, is another concept taken from the sun god. The theme of temptation by a devil-like creature was also found in pagan mythology. In particular, the story of Jesus's temptation by Satan resembles the temptation of Osiris by the devil-god Set in Egyptian mythology.

Bibleman Wrote:



Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."





SHortly after, He and his parents escaped to egypt for a time (to get away from Herod), then relocated to Nazareth.

LMAO, If he was born in Bethlehem.. he would have been calles Jesus of Bethleham. It went by where you were born, not by where you lived.

Humerous Hebrew Wrote:

(Habakkuk 3:13) You come forth to save your people, to save your anointed one. You crush the heads of the wicked, you lay bare their bases at the neck…




According to this prophecy, God WILL save his anointed one. God should have saved Jesus if Jesus was the anointed one. Logic says that if Jesus was the Messiah, God should have saved him. Instead Jesus died the most humiliating death. Jesus even died before the other two criminals who were crucified with him (according to 'John'), which makes him an even weaker mortal.

I wanted to name my second son Habakkuk, but my wife wouldn't have it :) I went with Noah instead (Noah Elijah), If not for his last name, he might be taken for Jewish no?



Anyway, My bible reads this way:



Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, for the salvation of thy anointed. Thou didst crush the head of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck. Selah



So as I read it it's saying God is comming back to save his people (the jews), and gentiles that have been grafted into the vine such as myself :)