Genesis 19



1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;



2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.



3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.



4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:



5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.



6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,



7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.



8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.



9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.



10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.



11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.



12 And the angels said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:



13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.



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"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)



"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)



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Romans 1



24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.



26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.



27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.



32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.



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"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)



"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 1:7)



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Revelation 21



5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."



6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



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Revelation 22



10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.



11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.



12 And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.



13 I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.



14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

K, I read it... but who says the bible is true anyways?



Correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm probably not but I'm sure you'll correct me anyways) but here's how I see it:



The bible had to be written by man, it didn't just materialize, people wrote it. Now if the bible = the word of god, and the bible = written by man, then god = man?



Maybe I'm failing to grasp the concept that an almighty and all powerful god is illiterate and hence needed a man to write it for him? But I'm sure god works in mysterious ways and has an ultimate plan. He just forgot to write it down and hasn't been back since.



Now I'm not at all against the belief in god, nor religion. Both serve their purpose and can be very beneficial to society in a moral aspect. Please just keep in mind that the bible has been written and rewritten over thousands of years and in that time "Christianity" has changed its stances/beliefs a hundred times over. Each time changing through interpretation/translation. If you think the bible sitting in your home today is a verbatim copy of the originals, then you've never played a little game called telephone.



P.S. Given your fixation and irrational hatred towards homosexuals, I'm guessing you're probably closet-gay. Just come to terms with it already and spare all of us your bullshit.

(Doesn’t this thread belong in Religion?)



The Height of Human Arrogance is the belief that we are Righteous. Even the Teacher, Jesus Christ, never claimed himself to be righteous.

All Sins are forgiven before GOD as he is the only one who can pass Judgment. We are all born of Sin and it is our own duty to repent.



The variation is in how we repent – pious indignation isn’t repentance. If we live in rejection of the Truth, then we continue to live in sin – no matter how pious we are. Repentance is only fulfilled when we dedicate our lives to the pursuit of GOD’s love. (We achieve this by recognizing the Truth, which only a handful of people have - if you believe in these sorts of things.)

Philosophically, that is achievable by accepting that all things, good and bad, are merely a product of Duality stemming from the Causal Force. Yet, Philosophically, we can argue the presence or lack thereof of that thing which is called Causal Force.

If the mind is incapable of receiving or perceiving it – then it can never be recognized. In this, HE taught us to love them – ‘For they know not what they do.’ Yet they are still worthy of HIS love. If they are worthy of HIS love, then they should be worthy of your love – or is this too radical a way of thinking? And again, HE was crucified for his radical thinking – or did we lose sight of this?



If we live with different sets of morals and all those sets come from one source – then does it not necessitate (regardless of what we call that source) that it is the same? We perceive duality (difference) because we are taught to perceive it. Taking lessons from a book isn’t living the experience – it’s merely blindly accepting that someone else’s idea of the truth is the Truth.

Seek out instead your own Truth and forgo the pious indignations found in books – even those that are called Sacred Texts, for they themselves were written by men born of Sin.



Homosexuality, Abortion, or Murder is no different than Arrogance (Pride, ) or Righteousness when these drive men to wicked ends. Our responsibility isn’t to judge others for their sins, but to be mindful of our own.

Fractal Dreamer wrote:





Homosexuality, Abortion, or Murder is no different than Arrogance (Pride, ) or Righteousness when these drive men to wicked ends. Our responsibility isn’t to judge others for their sins, but to be mindful of our own.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote: well the bible is supposed to be 'inspired' by God and when you look at the fact that sixty somewhat writers spread across a wide time period wrote it and it all fits together seamlessly....

A Christian might a agree with you but an intellectually honest scholar would not.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:and actually the bibl has remained almost completely the same as the original since the old testiment was written by scribes who were trained since childhood to rewrite things accurately and it normally took them several years to complete one copy...

The Torah/Old Testament wasn't written down and compiled until 450 B.C.E. It was all oral history until then because of the persecution of the Israelites by the Babylonians, Assyrians, and Byzantines and the destruction of the earlier texts. The Israelites were heavily influenced by all three cultures, Judaism evolved, and it shows in the Torah. Modern translations of the Old Testament are taken entirely from the Septuagint.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote: the new testiment is the most well preserved book of all time...there are many copies of it from the time it was written, not just one like the illiad or other greek works from the same time period...

Actually, the "original" books of the New Testament are mere fragments now.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:...i will give you this, however, the bible did change somewhat during inturpritaion but not enough to change any of the basic 'truths' taught throughout it...

Actually, the translational differences change A LOT of the "basic truths". The problem arose because the languages the texts were originally written in were infinitely more complex than modern language and, in some cases, certain words had no parallel in a foreign language. Interpretive differences can change the meaning entirely.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:and actually christianity has not changed its stance very much at all...

Christianity has changed significantly since it's founding. I suggest you read up on the early church.

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:

Robert wrote:

K, I read it... but who says the bible is true anyways?



Correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm probably not but I'm sure you'll correct me anyways) but here's how I see it:



The bible had to be written by man, it didn't just materialize, people wrote it. Now if the bible = the word of god, and the bible = written by man, then god = man?



Maybe I'm failing to grasp the concept that an almighty and all powerful god is illiterate and hence needed a man to write it for him? But I'm sure god works in mysterious ways and has an ultimate plan. He just forgot to write it down and hasn't been back since.



Now I'm not at all against the belief in god, nor religion. Both serve their purpose and can be very beneficial to society in a moral aspect. Please just keep in mind that the bible has been written and rewritten over thousands of years and in that time "Christianity" has changed its stances/beliefs a hundred times over. Each time changing through interpretation/translation. If you think the bible sitting in your home today is a verbatim copy of the originals, then you've never played a little game called telephone.



P.S. Given your fixation and irrational hatred towards homosexuals, I'm guessing you're probably closet-gay. Just come to terms with it already and spare all of us your bullshit.

well the bible is supposed to be 'inspired' by God and when you look at the fact that sixty somewhat writers spread across a wide time period wrote it and it all fits together seamlessly and has predicted events almost precisely, then i'd have to say that i believe it is valid...and actually the bibl has remained almost completely the same as the original since the old testiment was written by scribes who were trained since childhood to rewrite things accurately and it normally took them several years to complete one copy...the new testiment is the most well preserved book of all time...there are many copies of it from the time it was written, not just one like the illiad or other greek works from the same time period...i will give you this, however, the bible did change somewhat during inturpritaion but not enough to change any of the basic 'truths' taught throughout it...and actually christianity has not changed its stance very much at all...you're refering to the catholics who in the dark ages only used a latin translation of the bible and kept the people from being able to read it for themselves...consiquently the priest were able to change the message of the bible for their benefit...the reformation happened when several priest saw what the church was doing was wrong and translated the bible to the languages of the countries they were in thus giving the people the freedom to make up their own mind about the message in the bible...i might point out that great care was taken in the translations that occured at that time...with the bible being presented in more than one way now, there quickly developed two dominant groups, the catholics and the protestants who refused to see eye to eye...telephone is done with the purpose of distorting the original message...the available copies of both the original old and new testiment books line up very well with the english copies of the bible...plus the theoligical chrisyians devote their lives to making sure it is as close to the original as possible...

There is some truth to what you've said, and what I wrote was primarily to mock the original poster and his ignorant view of other human beings through blind faith and literal interpretation wherever it supports his point of view.



While I admit there are a few few truths to what you've written, there are also a few missconceptions and assumptions. First of all, christianity has not been relatively unchanged over the last couple thousand years. It has changed dramatically. If you are interested in the subject I'd encourage you to further research the history of Christianity. I think you'll find that a LOT has changed and continues to change. One popular example (which is argued) of this is in the earliest workings of christian art, jesus was a symbolic figure (the good sheperd boy) and not an actual person. There is no conclusive evidence to prove anything you've said, and there is no conclusive evidence to truelly disprove it. Hence I personally choose to be Agnostic and move on with life.

WRONG!



that seemed like emotionally filled,

irrational babbling.

you already believe,

and so you'll ignore anything,

no matter how credible,

that may damage that,

and you'll look for anything,

no matter the source,

that supports your beliefs.



gullibility doesn't work out for most people.

shoe-gazing SOMNAMBULIST wrote:



gullibility doesn't work out for most people.

Actually, I think a lot of people are quite comfortable with it ;-)

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:

what credibility does the other side offer that is greater than my own? your personal preference, and in you case, fear of another viewpoint, dictate which side you will listen to...if you knew me you would very quickly realize that i am still searching for truth and have gone to great extents in that search...while christian beleifs do affect my own they do not dictate it...your fear of it has closed you mind and caused me to be a target of your anger...

That's precisely why I'm agnostic, the truth is that noone knows the "truth" with any absolute certainty.



Religion is extremely improbable, but there is nothing that can definately prove it to be impossible. If you're honestly interested in the truth though, you should really remove any form of bias. Assuming truth or conclusions through the teachings of Christianity will only shape the facts to fit your theory. To quote sherlock holmes, "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data."

The Magical Pixie Horse wrote:

shoe-gazing SOMNAMBULIST wrote:

WRONG!



that seemed like emotionally filled,

irrational babbling.

you already believe,

and so you'll ignore anything,

no matter how credible,

that may damage that,

and you'll look for anything,

no matter the source,

that supports your beliefs.



gullibility doesn't work out for most people.

i beg to differ with you comment for it was the one that seemed emotionally filled...are you afraid of my statements? what would cause a reaction like that on a forum like this...i could see where it would come from on another forum but you were out of line...what credibility does the other side offer that is greater than my own? your personal preference, and in you case, fear of another viewpoint, dictate which side you will listen to...if you knew me you would very quickly realize that i am still searching for truth and have gone to great extents in that search...while christian beleifs do affect my own they do not dictate it...your fear of it has closed you mind and caused me to be a target of your anger...

the credibility of "the other side" is first person observation.



your credibility is like playing the game of telephone:

"somebody said that somebody said that somebody said that this is true,

so i'm going to live like this."



i think that you were reading for anger in my post,

just like you look at everything else in a biased way to reafirm your beliefs,

instead of observing ready to adjust your beliefs towards the truth.



i'm pretty calm and cool.



i don't fear christianity,

i just look at it from as objective a perspective as i can.

honestly,

christianity is as fanciful as any other religion,

and is similarly as probable to be the truth.

it's been infront of every americans face for so long,

shoved down their throats,

that even the thought process of american athiests aren't far off from those of christians.



i saw the screen name of the original poster,

and thought:

"WOW, christians have done a really good job. they might be the best propogandists to ever walk the face of the earth."