Almost all professional philosophers believe that God is subject to the laws of logic. If God can transcend these laws, then there isn't any reason to believe in God. The entire issue of God's existence would be inaccessible from any rational inquiry. People could never justifiably believe in God on the basis of reason, and it would definitely be questionable whether even instances of revelation would justify belief. What's more, certain atheistic arguments may be made more persuasive if God transcends logic. The Problem of Evil, for instance, can not be evaded by appeal to free will or compensating goods -- for an unbound deity could have created a perfect world full of free agents and no evil. Nevertheless, this argument wouldn't justify disbelieve, either, because God might still exist even if he doesn't exist. Which makes no sense, but then again, that's to be expected of a deity that transcends logic.



In sort, your position entails that you should be a fideist if you want to believe in God -- just accept it on faith and not reason. Thus, it would be pointless to even discuss the matter with rational unbelievers, since you are not in a position to advance any good reasons to believe in God.



And as a side note, if the law of non-contradiction is violated even once, then all of logic is flawed. For anything follows from a true contradiction. I can deductively prove that you are a fairy from another planet if you but give me the truth of (a) and ~(a).

ryan wrote:

It continues to amaze me how through science and the media (thats a whole other subject) people don't believe in Christianity (or other religions) and just fulfill their short-time pleasures. I'm not saying that not being Christian will not make you happy in the long time or that all Christians are happy, just that people conform to the idea that "science explains everything" and that the media is right. neither are true and neither will be.

Ryan,



I am agnostic and I am very curious how people come to believe in god. What is it exactly makes you believe in god?

Sam wrote:

Glen wrote:



In sort, your position entails that you should be a fideist if you want to believe in God -- just accept it on faith and not reason. Thus, it would be pointless to even discuss the matter with rational unbelievers, since you are not in a position to advance any good reasons to believe in God.

I have serious doubts that anyone, ANYONE, believes in God on faith alone. However, they may have very poor reasons for believing that God exists (hence the need to invoke faith and hail it as a virtue).

Good point, Sam. After all, I don't believe in God by faith alone, instead, I have 'reasons' for why I believe in God, but like you said, they are very poor reasons as seen by non believers, and thus I have invoked faith and hailed it as a virtue. But I don't think I was wrong to do this, either.



Honestly, I pretty much just think that creation is more logical than evolution, and if creation were true, then God must exist. But beyond that, I'd say that the reason I am a philosopher is not only because I want to understand the world around me, but because I want to understand God. If He created the universe, He must have done it for a 'reason.' What is that reason, and what is my role in it? That's my main focus. Possibly the most difficult question to find answers for... not that I haven't begun to.



Peace

Sam wrote:

Glen wrote:



In sort, your position entails that you should be a fideist if you want to believe in God -- just accept it on faith and not reason. Thus, it would be pointless to even discuss the matter with rational unbelievers, since you are not in a position to advance any good reasons to believe in God.

I have serious doubts that anyone, ANYONE, believes in God on faith alone. However, they may have very poor reasons for believing that God exists (hence the need to invoke faith and hail it as a virtue).

Sometimes, when an individual believes in God, mere words defy explanation of "why". It's just something that draws them; appeals to their soul (which even non-believers seem to believe they have). I'm not talking about faith, I'm talking about why the actual belief happens or occurs, as if to say there was a point in time when this occurance took place. It might be easier to define why you don't believe than why you do, since faith is an absence of things seen.

ryan wrote:

God is so beyond our realm of comprehension and understanding QUOTE]



I still have yet to come to a reason to believe in something that I as you say cannot possibly comprehend. I'm quite alright with whats here and what I can understand. If I am not to understand it, then how am I to understand my belief in it?

ryan wrote:

no man im always searching. and there are things that we are unsure about in life. im just saying God is a definite and i dont think we'll ever understand his existence or anything about him truly until we die. understanding him completely is beyond our realm of comprehension. we should still debate and search, im just saying that neither side of the argument is wrong.

If god is definite, then we would understand, I really think people should take a liguistics course or something so they understand the words they spit. Break the word Definite down and tell me where it comes from and what it means. Finite meaning absolute property, wit a prefix "De" giving the word the literall meaning Specific and Identifiable. God is not as you said before by stating God is beyond our comprehension" ???

ryan wrote:

-The Grizz Biz- wrote:

ryan wrote:

no man im always searching. and there are things that we are unsure about in life. im just saying God is a definite and i dont think we'll ever understand his existence or anything about him truly until we die. understanding him completely is beyond our realm of comprehension. we should still debate and search, im just saying that neither side of the argument is wrong.

If god is definite, then we would understand, I really think people should take a liguistics course or something so they understand the words they spit. Break the word Definite down and tell me where it comes from and what it means. Finite meaning absolute property, wit a prefix "De" giving the word the literall meaning Specific and Identifiable. God is not as you said before by stating God is beyond our comprehension" ???

God is definite in your heart, and then in your mind. your cant force it into your mind. it has always come back to me no matter what. thats why i believe in God. because i DONT KNOW WHY i came back to God, but the fact is I DID. WHY is beyond our realm of comprehension.



He's definite to me, im not saying he has to be to everyone else. im not an evangelical and i believe in gay marriage, religious tolerance, and learning and seeking as much as you can.



i think people have the wrong perception of me. im actually more democat than republican.

I care nothing for your political alliance, and your perception of me in some way attacking you as an evangelical only makes me wonder. I am simply refering to your use of words that does not function properly with the meaning that you are using them for. Making your statement false in proof. That is all. God can be whatever to whoever they want him/she/it to be. I have no feeling towards the subject, other than I respect and pay homage to what shows itself as itself. This reat place we are fortunate enough to expirience meaning earth is where my respects lay. Not in something that would choos illusion and running around the bush techniques as justifying its existance, if there was a god, and I did cross that path to his/her/it's feet I would say the exact same thing, if I am your creation, then why not honor me as such and stop with the endless games and proving of ones dominence and control. In te end the essence of christianity is a game is it not? you have a choice, but then again you do not. All knowing and all seeing omniscience as it is would conclude that this and what is to come has already passed through gods eyes and the final outcome has already been determined even those not of birth, what is the point in that? also Satan, his beloved son and creation condemned for thoughts and actions god already knew to take place because omniscience is being ahead of the game so to speak, sorry if that is what god is, I will stand as I do, indifferent to his/her/its game to which its the only real player, like a selfish child that won't let anyone else have a turn.

ryan wrote:

im sorry your angry at the way God is. it is unfair but, unlike most people, i believe there is someone looking over me. ive been angry at him a thousand times, but i always go back. i cant explain it, but its just there.



i hope you can find whatever it is for you to be happy, if you are not already.

I am quite content. Your belief is in comfort, because you lack the sack to look at whats in front of you. Who ever said I was angry? I just think that whatevr it is if it indeed exists is pointless to believe in or follow according to basic morals and ethics.

Why do people do this? It is the internet. I know that you can say what you want, but I think people should let stuff like this go. I mean, really. I highly doubt that you will ever personally, face to face, meet this person in real life so I don't think arguing over some gay thing about god being "definite" really matters.



That whole paragraph probably does not even make any sence. Man...do I have a lot of time on my hands.

Dounis wrote:

Why do people do this? It is the internet. I know that you can say what you want, but I think people should let stuff like this go. I mean, really. I highly doubt that you will ever personally, face to face, meet this person in real life so I don't think arguing over some gay thing about god being "definite" really matters.



That whole paragraph probably does not even make any sence. Man...do I have a lot of time on my hands.

prolly not to you, why don't you read it before you come to a conclusion, or is ot a habit of yours just to jump over whatever you feel like and thus conclude whatever you feel like and portray said conclusion as a truth? You = Fail

Will yo not answer my questions, or did you get 3 senences in and realize your out of your league and well over yor head in understanding? summising that I should qualify as your god because I am beyond yourcomprehension?





* note E-chat does not express proper emotion-

ryan wrote:

I've seen that alot of people on the boards are atheist because of logical reasoning. why use logical reasoning with someone like God? God is so beyond our realm of comprehension and understanding that using logical reasoning to try and figure out if God exists or not is dumbing ourselves down. Philosophical thinkers do not just use logical reasoning but often understanding that there are things we will never understand, like God. this is not to say that we shouldn't think and wonder, but it is to say that while doing so you must understand that there is no definite answer to some things and never will be.

Agnosticism

ryan wrote:

How perfect we are, how perfect the world is, how amazing humans are above all other creatures... is that really just science?

Anthropocentrism

ryan wrote:

I dont want to get into evolution and everything but i will NEVER believe that who we are, where we are, and what we are meant to do is just coincidence.

Ignorance

ryan wrote:

It continues to amaze me how through science and the media (thats a whole other subject) people don't believe in Christianity (or other religions) and just fulfill their short-time pleasures. I'm not saying that not being Christian will not make you happy in the long time or that all Christians are happy, just that people conform to the idea that "science explains everything" and that the media is right. neither are true and neither will be.

Hypocrisy



When such a lengthy argument can be dissected, analyzed, and disproved in such a concise manner, you know that it isn't worthy of this forum.



If you need an explanation, message me. Though I have no doubt that non-theists will understand this response completely.

Sam wrote:

Glen wrote:



In sort, your position entails that you should be a fideist if you want to believe in God -- just accept it on faith and not reason. Thus, it would be pointless to even discuss the matter with rational unbelievers, since you are not in a position to advance any good reasons to believe in God.

I have serious doubts that anyone, ANYONE, believes in God on faith alone. However, they may have very poor reasons for believing that God exists (hence the need to invoke faith and hail it as a virtue).

Allow me to end your doubts. It is Faith alone which has brought me to believe in my LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ. That's why it's called Faith. Faith is beleiving in something even though logic and reason may seem to disagree with it. Faith is trust.



Here's an analogy, I know it's not the best, but it's the only one I can think of at the moment that can help get my point across:



If you've ever seen the Disney movie "Aladdin", then I ask you to remember the scene when Aladdin and Jasmine were running from the guards in the market place, and they had to make this big jump, and Aladdin asks Jasmine, "Do you trust me?". Jasmine had no logical reason to trust Aladdin. He was a common thief, likely to steal all her valuables when they got away. But she had faith in Aladdin, even though reason said not to, and she trusted him and jumped.



Likewise, your reasoning and logic may tell you that God doesn't exist, I have to admit that even my reasoning and logic sometimes say, "How can God exist?", but I believe that He does. It's called Faith. I trust that the Bible is the inerrant word of God even though there is no proof of that besides the Bible's own testimony. That is Faith. I trust that I am saved by the Blood of Jesus even though logic and reason would tell me that He couldn't have risen from the dead and He couldn't have saved me. That's Faith. I trust that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ even though logic and reasoning tell me that it's just bread and wine. That's Faith. Need I go on?

How hard would it be to mix religion and evolution? Is it possible to believe in both?

Austin wrote:

Sam wrote:

Glen wrote:



In sort, your position entails that you should be a fideist if you want to believe in God -- just accept it on faith and not reason. Thus, it would be pointless to even discuss the matter with rational unbelievers, since you are not in a position to advance any good reasons to believe in God.

I have serious doubts that anyone, ANYONE, believes in God on faith alone. However, they may have very poor reasons for believing that God exists (hence the need to invoke faith and hail it as a virtue).

Allow me to end your doubts. It is Faith alone which has brought me to believe in my LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ. That's why it's called Faith. Faith is beleiving in something even though logic and reason may seem to disagree with it. Faith is trust.



Here's an analogy, I know it's not the best, but it's the only one I can think of at the moment that can help get my point across:



If you've ever seen the Disney movie "Aladdin", then I ask you to remember the scene when Aladdin and Jasmine were running from the guards in the market place, and they had to make this big jump, and Aladdin asks Jasmine, "Do you trust me?". Jasmine had no logical reason to trust Aladdin. He was a common thief, likely to steal all her valuables when they got away. But she had faith in Aladdin, even though reason said not to, and she trusted him and jumped.



Likewise, your reasoning and logic may tell you that God doesn't exist, I have to admit that even my reasoning and logic sometimes say, "How can God exist?", but I believe that He does. It's called Faith. I trust that the Bible is the inerrant word of God even though there is no proof of that besides the Bible's own testimony. That is Faith. I trust that I am saved by the Blood of Jesus even though logic and reason would tell me that He couldn't have risen from the dead and He couldn't have saved me. That's Faith. I trust that the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of Christ even though logic and reasoning tell me that it's just bread and wine. That's Faith. Need I go on?

No. Because nothing you have said starting from "allow" all the way to "on" has any substance whatsoever. You wasted several paragraphs of text, and some of my time. If you're not going to post anything susbstantial, don't post at all. faith means nothing, because two or more people can have an equal amount of faith in two or more opposing beliefs and they would all be equally valid. This is not truth, this is assumption. This is ignorance. There is nothing good, righteous, or wonderful about blind faith. It;s laziness coupled with stupidity.