http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_holocaus t_conference



Iran opens Holocaust conference



TEHRAN, Iran -

Iran on Monday opened a Holocaust conference that it said would examine whether the genocide took place, claiming the meeting was an opportunity for discussion in an atmosphere free of Western taboos.



The conference, "Review of the Holocaust: Global Vision," was initiated by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has described the Holocaust as a "myth" and called for

Israel to be wiped off the map. Even before it opened, the gathering was condemned by Germany, the United States and Israel.



The organizers, the Foreign Ministry's Institute for Political and International Studies, say the two-day conference has drawn 67 foreign researchers from 30 countries.



In his opening speech, the institute's chief, Rasoul Mousavi, said the conference provided an opportunity to discuss "questions" about the Holocaust away from Western taboos and the restrictions imposed on scholars in Europe.



In Germany, Austria and France, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust.



"This conference seeks neither to deny nor prove the Holocaust," Mousavi said. "It is just to provide an appropriate scientific atmosphere for scholars to offer their opinions in freedom about a historical issue."



Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki dismissed the foreign criticism as "predictable," telling conference delegates in a speech that there was "no logical reason for opposing this conference."



"The objective for organizing this conference is to create an atmosphere to raise various opinions about a historical issue. We are not seeking to deny or prove the Holocaust," Mottaki said.



"If the official version of the Holocaust is thrown into doubt, then the identity and nature of Israel will be thrown into doubt. And if, during this review, it is proved that the Holocaust was a historical reality, then what is the reason for the Muslim people of the region and the Palestinians having to pay the cost of the Nazis' crimes?" Mottaki said.



In Israel, the official Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, issued a statement condemning the Tehran conference as an attempt to "paint (an) extremist agenda with a scholarly brush ... an effort to mainstream Holocaust denial."



The conference was expected to receive a message from Ahmadinejad, who has said that the killing of six million Jews by the Nazi German regime during World War II was a "myth" and "exaggerated."



The president has repeatedly questioned why the Holocaust has been used to justify the creation of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians — a view popular among Iranian hard-liners.



Iran has spent months preparing for the conference, even publicizing it during the September visit to Tehran of U.N. Secretary-General

Kofi Annan, who contradicted his hosts by saying the Holocaust was a historical fact and that an exhibition of anti-Holocaust cartoons, then on display in the city, promoted hatred.

Were I to think this was a genuine attempt by reputible scholars to examine the evidence of the Holocaust and its extent I would support it.



But it's not. It's nothing more than a collection of anti-Semites, anti-Israelists (if that's a word) and other associated people seeking to further their own agendas.



Such farcial and bogus 'history' is something the rest of us could well do without.

The only problem the holocaust denial group have is the thousands of jews who survived the camps, the allied POWs who were interned there, the people in the nazi occupied territories who lived near there, the Russian, British and American soldiers who came across these camps as they advanced into Germany, the film evidence, the documentary evidence from the nazis themselves, the Nuremburg trials, the installations themselves etc etc.

The Iranian leadership seem to think the rest of the world is composed of the same cowed, impressionable, gullible people who they have under their thumb. To deny such a horror took place for their own political agenda is to readily identify the quality of the character of such people. They are a disgrace to the human race.

In their defense, if they merely are trying to help narrow the accuracy of the numbers killed, that is possible. Several scholars do not deny the Holocaust happened, but do question the legitmacy of the numbers killed -- as well as the role of the average German [and average world] citizen.



But, it sounds like this is just another attempt to cobble together an excuse to "wipe Israel from the map."

peter wrote:

The Iranian leadership seem to think the rest of the world is composed of the same cowed, impressionable, gullible people who they have under their thumb. To deny such a horror took place for their own political agenda is to readily identify the quality of the character of such people. They are a disgrace to the human race.

Peter, the Iranian leadership is not as dumb as you, and others, would like to believe. They do not think what you stated earlier. In fact, to think so, is to fall into the usual trap Anglo-Saxsons do...your governments' tell you that there is a "boogey-man" and you jump up and assume it's true.



The reality is, is that this conference is designed for 3 major intents:



1. Political rhetoric. Anti-Israel-ism is the one thing that goes above the Shia/Sunni, and Non-Arab/Arab divide. It is necessary so as to show signs of growing regional power, not just to Israel, to the West and to the US, but even to Saudi Arabia, which hates Iran because it is Shia and because it is non-Arab.



2. To highlight the ridiculousness of Israel. As the article states the Minister says (paraphrase): either we show it didnt happen...or we show it did and then the question of why Palestinians are being punished for it arises.



Which of course goes back to #1...Iran showing its unity for Palestinians, and drawing strength as a regional force.



3. Whether you like to admit it or not (and if I recall you are from England, so you won't admit it probably), but the West uses a lot of bull-shit as rhetoric. This is just meant to be a tit-for-tat response. It's not different than what the West does to the rest of the World. You probably just don't see it.



All-in-all, I agree with what the others' have said so far. That it is disgusting, but because it is fake. If it was a real attempt at discussing the issues, then I'd be all for it, but it's not...it's political...and should be seen in that light.



Still, don't make the mistake you made...Ahmadinejad is not a "boogie-man", like our government's would like us to believe. ;)

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

Jim: He can be smart and dangerous and still be a boogey-man. I rest my case because the boogey-man in the animated Ghostbusters was smart and dangerous.

LOL Now is that the animated GhostBusters or the animated "Real Ghostbusters"?

Jim: He can be smart and dangerous and still be a boogey-man. I rest my case because the boogey-man in the animated Ghostbusters was smart and dangerous.

My name is: Jim wrote:

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

Jim: He can be smart and dangerous and still be a boogey-man. I rest my case because the boogey-man in the animated Ghostbusters was smart and dangerous.

LOL Now is that the animated GhostBusters or the animated "Real Ghostbusters"?

The original. Real Ghostbusters and Real G.I. Joe make me sad inside.

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

My name is: Jim wrote:

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

Jim: He can be smart and dangerous and still be a boogey-man. I rest my case because the boogey-man in the animated Ghostbusters was smart and dangerous.

LOL Now is that the animated GhostBusters or the animated "Real Ghostbusters"?

The original. Real Ghostbusters and Real G.I. Joe make me sad inside.

Even as a kid I realized GI Joe was propaganda. I only feel sad inside when I think of all those kids who like GI Joe. I always rooted for COBRA.



Transformers, now THERE was quality. ;) I can't wait till the new "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" movie comes out. It looks incredibly good!! :)

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

In their defense, if they merely are trying to help narrow the accuracy of the numbers killed, that is possible. Several scholars do not deny the Holocaust happened, but do question the legitmacy of the numbers killed -- as well as the role of the average German [and average world] citizen.



But, it sounds like this is just another attempt to cobble together an excuse to "wipe Israel from the map."

six million jews and five million other ethnic minorities is the oft quoted figure. Where that number is obtained from .. I do not know. Maybe it was from the Nazi lists themselves.. you know how meticulous they were. Scholars often jump on things like that so that they can present a paper to make a name for themselves. But they are not always right.. look at David Irvine more recently, and in the 80s Hugh Trevor Roper with the debacle over the so called Hitler Diaries. So basically I am not too swayed by the comments of scholars as they invariably have an ulterior motive in such a matter.

11 million, 6 million, one million.. are numbers the issue here? I doubt it.. as you said.. just another excuse to have a go at the Jews.. the world's scapegoat for the ignorami.

peter wrote:

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

In their defense, if they merely are trying to help narrow the accuracy of the numbers killed, that is possible. Several scholars do not deny the Holocaust happened, but do question the legitmacy of the numbers killed -- as well as the role of the average German [and average world] citizen.



But, it sounds like this is just another attempt to cobble together an excuse to "wipe Israel from the map."

six million jews and five million other ethnic minorities is the oft quoted figure. Where that number is obtained from .. I do not know. Maybe it was from the Nazi lists themselves.. you know how meticulous they were. Scholars often jump on things like that so that they can present a paper to make a name for themselves. But they are not always right.. look at David Irvine more recently, and in the 80s Hugh Trevor Roper with the debacle over the so called Hitler Diaries. So basically I am not too swayed by the comments of scholars as they invariably have an ulterior motive in such a matter.

11 million, 6 million, one million.. are numbers the issue here? I doubt it.. as you said.. just another excuse to have a go at the Jews.. the world's scapegoat for the ignorami.

The Roma/Gypsies were slaughtered, and the rules against them were more severe. If anyone is "the world's scapegoat" it is the Roma/Gypsies. Funny, since they are originally from India, they are in fact ARYANS. :(

Σ∅L ≠ csiltaivzeen wrote:

If you find anyone who says the holocaust did not happen, send them my way. I have records in German listing the details of my family members who were taken by Nazis, including what day and time they were picked up, what police station they were brought to, and then what train they were put on, and which camp the train went to, and then their death record. This was obtainable from the International Red Cross in Arolsen, Germany.



I also used to take care of holocaust survivors in an orthodox jewish nursing homes, and they had the tatoos on their arms.

Anti-Holocaust literature has an interesting historiography. Because of examples that you've listed -- they now have backed off from a "did not happen" stand point to "not nearly as heinous" stand point. I predict that in a few years they will fall back to "not Germany's fault -- the world is to blame" stand point.

Matt the Magnifismurf wrote:

....L .. csiltaivzeen wrote:

If you find anyone who says the holocaust did not happen, send them my way. I have records in German listing the details of my family members who were taken by Nazis, including what day and time they were picked up, what police station they were brought to, and then what train they were put on, and which camp the train went to, and then their death record. This was obtainable from the International Red Cross in Arolsen, Germany.



I also used to take care of holocaust survivors in an orthodox jewish nursing homes, and they had the tatoos on their arms.

Anti-Holocaust literature has an interesting historiography. Because of examples that you've listed -- they now have backed off from a "did not happen" stand point to "not nearly as heinous" stand point. I predict that in a few years they will fall back to "not Germany's fault -- the world is to blame" stand point.

Several already do start down that line once the rest of their 'evidence' is quickly debunked.



But yes, the majority of Deniers don't actually deny that it happened, they merely question the numbers and the methods.

My name is: Jim wrote:

peter wrote:

The Iranian leadership seem to think the rest of the world is composed of the same cowed, impressionable, gullible people who they have under their thumb. To deny such a horror took place for their own political agenda is to readily identify the quality of the character of such people. They are a disgrace to the human race.

Peter, the Iranian leadership is not as dumb as you, and others, would like to believe. They do not think what you stated earlier. In fact, to think so, is to fall into the usual trap Anglo-Saxsons do...your governments' tell you that there is a "boogey-man" and you jump up and assume it's true.



The reality is, is that this conference is designed for 3 major intents:



1. Political rhetoric. Anti-Israel-ism is the one thing that goes above the Shia/Sunni, and Non-Arab/Arab divide. It is necessary so as to show signs of growing regional power, not just to Israel, to the West and to the US, but even to Saudi Arabia, which hates Iran because it is Shia and because it is non-Arab.



2. To highlight the ridiculousness of Israel. As the article states the Minister says (paraphrase): either we show it didnt happen...or we show it did and then the question of why Palestinians are being punished for it arises.



Which of course goes back to ..1...Iran showing its unity for Palestinians, and drawing strength as a regional force.



3. Whether you like to admit it or not (and if I recall you are from England, so you won't admit it probably), but the West uses a lot of bull-shit as rhetoric. This is just meant to be a tit-for-tat response. It's not different than what the West does to the rest of the World. You probably just don't see it.



All-in-all, I agree with what the others' have said so far. That it is disgusting, but because it is fake. If it was a real attempt at discussing the issues, then I'd be all for it, but it's not...it's political...and should be seen in that light.



Still, don't make the mistake you made...Ahmadinejad is not a "boogie-man", like our government's would like us to believe. ;)

I think you misread what I said.. I agree with you.. I do not think the Iranian leadership is stupid.. on the contrary, I think they are very clever and manipulative. They are in a no lose situation in their eyes. Even if the Holocaust is proven to be true then that is no excuse to take it out on the Palestinians.

I agree with you.. there is a lot of western propoganda.. as much as Iranian. There is a difference though. We can question it publically with impunity. I do not see the people in Iran being able to do this.

I am giving my opinion here not from a western viewpoint but as a member of the human race and passing my own personal judgment on a group of men, whether they are western or middle eastern, who can use such a horror for their own political ends.